Visa fullständig version : Rule of Law vs. Justice

2010-02-02, 22:34
Hello fellow pirates

I'm a Pirate in Germany and there is currently a discussion and I want to hear what you have to say (as you are probably unbiased).

It goes as following:
The German minister of finance was offered to buy a CD for 2.5 Milion Euro with Data about tax-evaders. The Data was suppousedly stolen from swiss banks. The CD allegedly has Data about 100 Million tax-evaded Euros. They already tested a "sample" of 5 Data-sets and it lead to Millions of repaid taxes and penalties.

This was not the first such case we had in germany. About one Year ago, someone stole Data from a Liechtenstein bank, which lead to many tax-evaders to be caught. Among them the former CEO of the postal service and highranking officials.

This time it is exactly the same debate, however, the thief might be motivated by the earlier incident.

Critics of the german government argue, that the government should follow a "poisonuos tree"-doctrin as it is established in the USA. It means that the state can never use illegal acquired material to collect evidence. Others say it is legally justified to buy this CD, to uncover a larger crime.

The german Pirate Party has not yet proposed an official standpoint, each political standpoint seems to have equal followers in the party.

Now what do you think? I do have a strong opinion on this topic, however I want to keep you unbiased for now ;).

2010-02-03, 19:15
What you describe is not quite what "fruits of the poisioned tree" doctrine in the US means. That means that if the rules of evidence was broken, like not getting the proper warrants then any and all evidence following as a consequence is void, even if no one intentionally broke the rules.

In this case, the police would be the criminals dealing in stolen goods themselves. By paying them instead of arresting them they'd be giving them a form of immunity and directly support and fund crime. It creates a very dangerous precedent where the police can in practise hire thugs with "reward money" and avoid solving crime they suspect is done by their hirelings.

I can't speak for the Pirate Party, but I would strongly recommend they don't pay and not become co-conspirators to one part of organized crime to fight another.

2010-02-08, 21:47
I can't speak for the Pirate Party, but I would strongly recommend they don't pay and not become co-conspirators to one part of organized crime to fight another.

Thanks for your answer. This is actually also my view on this issue.

We eventually announced, that we oppose the buying of the CD. However this decision was not uncontroversional. We were also the only Party in Germany which took this unpopular position.

The german Gouvernment, however, decided to buy the CD and — surprise — there are now even more offers to buy a "tax-CD". I personally think they are bogus and to trick the german government into paying money...

2010-02-09, 23:16
In the middle age they tortured citizens to get the "truth". Even when you make a "gift" you can't be sure if the information you get sticks to the "truth".
The market of blue ray and DVD has skyrocketed i would not much amazed about if they do some files on it selling to any gov.
France was in the same situation:
"Last month, France's Budget Minister Eric Woerth made headlines when he said he was holding onto data of 3,000 Swiss accounts owned by French taxpayers. He said many of them were of tax dodgers and that he would continue to search for more such accounts. "

But even this were true files this would become Stasi 2.0. Everyone lures and "phishs" for info to sell and make money with the gov.